Atheists or Militant atheists

**Gotch** · October 11th, 2009, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by Biggin

see, you did the same he did
we arent talking about all other countries, we are talking about AMERICA, the land of the free.
We are debating letting Christian ideology influence politics, and homosexuality legislation in this country is just that, Christian-based.
you spent 20 minutes saying nothing that had anything to do with what we are discussing.

Do you deny that US policy towards homosexuals is based on Christian ideology?

It isnt only the inquisition and the crusades. You are a smart guy Gotch, you know about all the countless times in history people were murdered by the Catholic church purely for being heretic, or trying to teach science instead of religion.
Another point you cannot deny.
and for you not to mention that the Crusades also attacked pagan Slavs, Jews, Russian and Greek Orthodox Christians, Mongols, Cathars, Hussites, Waldensians, Old Prussians, and political enemies of the popes is leaving out crucial facts. All that to 'stop Islamic imperalism'? ha hardly.
The purpose of the Crusades was to regain the Holy Land.
btw, the term Crusades refers to more than simpy the war to gain back the Holy Land. The term also refers to the other 'missions' they were sent on by the Pope outside of Middle Eastern area.

giant creatures, bigger than buildings, that roamed the earth and terrorized early cave-man not being mentioned in a book that supposedly recaps the history of the world leads me to believe that it in fact has no factual basis. that was my point.

America you say? Well since the countries that treat homosexuals the best (less persecution, more rights and freedom) are predominately Christian nations, including the U.S. I would have to say, yes Christian views influence the way homosexuals are treated here, they are treated far better than in most none Christian nations, both current and historical.

I think you killed your own argument with this, "you know about all the countless times in history people were murdered by the Catholic church purely for being heretic....". The Catholic Church of that time was far more a political entity than a religious one. Political entities, not religious one, are nearly always the source of mass violence. In fact, when compared to other political entities of the time they were far less violent in most cases.

One can point to numerous sins of the RCC, but the RCC in no way represents Christendom as a whole, no more than the current Taliban represent Islam as a whole.

I stand by my position that the Crusades were a defensive action. I think I've shown ample evidence of that. It is clear that Islamic imperialism had spread all the way to France. It was fight or wait to be next. Anyone would have made the same decision. Once in action the Crusaders were like any other professional army and a number of groups became collateral victims. I'm not claiming that to be false, in fact it is a simple truth of war, especially in those days.

Where do you get anything about dinosaurs and people living at the same time? In fact where do you get a young earth theory from the Bible?

But again, you are referring to the OT, and again I have no interest in it.

**Biggin** · October 13th, 2009, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Gotch

America you say? Well since the countries that treat homosexuals the best (less persecution, more rights and freedom) are predominately Christian nations, including the U.S. I would have to say, yes Christian views influence the way homosexuals are treated here, they are treated far better than in most none Christian nations, both current and historical.

I think you killed your own argument with this, "you know about all the countless times in history people were murdered by the Catholic church purely for being heretic....". The Catholic Church of that time was far more a political entity than a religious one. Political entities, not religious one, are nearly always the source of mass violence. In fact, when compared to other political entities of the time they were far less violent in most cases.

One can point to numerous sins of the RCC, but the RCC in no way represents Christendom as a whole, no more than the current Taliban represent Islam as a whole.

I stand by my position that the Crusades were a defensive action. I think I've shown ample evidence of that. It is clear that Islamic imperialism had spread all the way to France. It was fight or wait to be next. Anyone would have made the same decision. Once in action the Crusaders were like any other professional army and a number of groups became collateral victims. I'm not claiming that to be false, in fact it is a simple truth of war, especially in those days.

Where do you get anything about dinosaurs and people living at the same time? In fact where do you get a young earth theory from the Bible?

But again, you are referring to the OT, and again I have no interest in it.

We treat homosexuals well, but we still treat them DIFFERENTLY. Therein lies the fault. Homosexuals are just people, they should be treated the same as anyone else. To admit that the US treats gays differently is to admit that homosexuality legislation in the US is religious-minded.

You cannot separate Catholicism from politics at the time, seeing as how they were so closely entwined. All the repressed artists, scientists, etc.. were not killed for political reasons alone, they threatened the grasp of Catholicism on all people, therefore they had to be killed. You can say it is political, but then you have to admit all politics of the time was influenced by religion.

You are comparing the RCC to the Taliban?? Maybe we arent as far apart as thought.
Almost all of the modern world is out to get the Taliban, but no one has went after the Catholic Church. Therefore, you either have to say; the RCC is an accurate representation of Christianity, or the RCC is a cult that needs to be eradicated.

You can say the basis for the Crusades was defensive, but what about all the other ethnicities killed, all the other countries invaded, the 'side-missions' authorized by the Popes of the time.
You know a lot about this subject, I find it very hard to believe that you truly think that all actions taken during the Crusades were justified. I dont understand. You know that the Crusades had events that were totally unjustified and did not fit in with your definition of defensive action.
I understand you don't want to compromise your argument. But to lay out a blanket that covers all actions when you know there were incidents of invading non-Muslim countries and murders that were not purely defensive is not truthful.

Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, that isn't the origin of species in the book of Christianity?

**Gotch** · October 14th, 2009, 08:50 AM

I'll try to answer this by giving some of my view points or opinions.

I'm not sure that homosexuals are treated differently here due to religious reasons, that is possible, but they have been separated and terribly treated by atheist states too, so that doesn't necessarily follow in step.

I actually was not comparing the RCC to the Taliban, just making a point about separations within a broader group.

I've already said that there were collateral victims of the crusaders. The crusaders were a ruthless and methodical army, the only type of army that could have a chance of success in that time. Yeah, they could be pretty brutal. And some of the Popes in those days were simply evil people. Also yes, I believe the RCC has meet all qualifications for a cult during many periods of it's existence, that's no longer is true though. Plus, we don't or at least should not just routinely "eradicate" any groups, cult or not. Scientology is certainly a cult but I don't see us rounding up Cruise, Travolta, and Alley and burning them at the stake, although I would support doing so with Cruise.

My personal belief is that the OT and NT are two completely separate entities and should be treated as such. My belief is that the OT is open for a much broader interpretation than the NT. I also believe that serious mistakes in translation have occurred, some intentional.

**Biggin** · October 15th, 2009, 03:18 PM

My point about the homosexuals in America was that we pride ourselves on supposed equality and freedoms, the government acts like we accept everyone equally.
But letting religious views dictate legislation about homosexuals is downright sickening, to me.

Scientology is a cult; if we could get rid of them it would be a joyous day for me.
I am so glad you brought it up lol, I read a lot about them last night. About the woman who DIED because they tried to cleanse her of the crazies instead of taking her to a doctor, even though she could not walk or speak.

Lisa McPherson, look it up. It was so sad, I thought about going the militant Islam way and starting firebombing. It makes me that sick. They call banks and credit unions to get information, lie, shred documents, physically abuse members, even take out mortages on member's houses. They will attack anyone who threatens them. It scares me to death. Anon. did a great thing with their protests, but that only goes so far.
The government needs to step in and raid all their offices and disband them totally.
Read the stories from some of the defectors, itll make you madder than hell.

People put all this faith in a science fiction writer who was known as a SCAM.
At least we can agree that Scientology is a cult.

**Gotch** · October 15th, 2009, 04:46 PM

Scientology has a history of using intimidation against anyone who they perceive as an enemy. Even agents of the federal government. I agree that they are more dangerous and more out of hand than most people realize.

There are several scientologists that post on another forum I belong to. They have a pre-programmed answer for everything, try to act like all the criticism is misplaced and play the victim. They all use the exact same terms, tactics, etc.

Brainwashed......

**R13** · October 15th, 2009, 04:53 PM

Scientology is a cult and a scam.

You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion. - L. Ron Hubbard

I agree they should be shut down somehow, but if they're going to, shut down the cult known as the Church of Latter Day Saints.

**cuuvapitt** · October 16th, 2009, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by R13

Scientology is a cult and a scam.

You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion. - L. Ron Hubbard

I agree they should be shut down somehow, but if they're going to, shut down the cult known as the Church of Latter Day Saints.

Couldn't agree more with Scientology or the Church of Latter Day Saints -- where you strive as men to become your own god and make people saints all the people who came on board as the 'founding fathers' of your 'religion'

**Biggin** · October 16th, 2009, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Gotch

Scientology has a history of using intimidation against anyone who they perceive as an enemy. Even agents of the federal government. I agree that they are more dangerous and more out of hand than most people realize.

There are several scientologists that post on another forum I belong to. They have a pre-programmed answer for everything, try to act like all the criticism is misplaced and play the victim. They all use the exact same terms, tactics, etc.

Brainwashed......

Hell look at their battles with the IRS for religious-exemption status.
Placing moles in the IRS, breaking in their offices to steal documents, falsifying documents, etc.

Brainwashed is the EXACT term I would use. It blows my mind that people actually believe in that junk. Thetan levels and alien spirits and a galactic terror named Xenu?: I mean really? I give Christians a hard time, but I at least respect their beliefs and such.
I wish the government would do more to counter act them. The IRS can't do it, it will be have to be a Dep. of Justice raid or CIA/FBI team manner.
I know we can't persecute people for their beliefs, but when they use intimidation and other illegal acts to run their cult, it need to be stopped.

Christianity is tithes and donations, but they do not make you pay money to belong to a religion.
When a religion charges money to become a member, ITS NOT A RELIGION! Its a for-profit business.
I am almost afraid to even really make it known and fight Scientology, because of what they do to people who go against them.

Gotch, if you want an interesting article, read this article from TIME in the early 90's and a great story written by the St. Petersburg Times, where one of the biggest cult offices is at Fort Harrison

TIME article;
Scientology: The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power
St. Petersburg Times;
Scientology: The truth rundown | Tampabay.com St. Petersburg Times
please read those articles guys, its downright scary.